There has been no significant progress in music or movies in the last 3 decades.
Rolling Stone just released another list. This time it’s the top 100 singers of all time. While I only have minor quibbles with a few of them, my problem is how easily we overlook anything that has happened in recent history. In this list, out of the top 50 singers, there are only a few that would be considered current, and most saw their peak a couple decades ago:
#30 Prince
#32 Bono
#36 Bruce Springsteen
#37 Neil Young
#38 Elton John
I then took a look at AFI’s top 100 movies of all time and it’s the same type of scenario. In the top 50 there are only 3 movies that made the list that were made after 1980:
#8 Schindler’s List
#24 E.T.
#50 LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring
TV does get a bit better. Not counting talk and news programs that have been on forever (i.e. 60 Minutes) we have on TV Guide’s top 50:
#1 Seinfeld
#5 Sopranos
#8 The Simpsons
#18 Cheers
#19 thirtysomething (!?)
#21 Friends
#22 ER
#24 Law & Order
#28 Cosby Show
#34 Frasier
#35 Roseanne
#37 X-Files
#41 Buffy
#45 Twin Peaks
#46 Star Trek: TNG
#48 Taxi
So, TV aside, what’s the reason for this? Are we artistically challenged at the present time or is this more because we appeal to nostalgia? And are there any great omissions from these lists?
Posted on November 13, 2008, in Pop Culture. Bookmark the permalink. 45 Comments.
Steve Evans
RJH
Scott B.
John C.
Susan M
Aaron Brown
ninemoons
arandomjohn
kulturblogadmin
Kyle M
Brad
KulturBlogGuest
MCQ
Wm
Rebecca
Ivan
Geoff J
btdgreg
Clark Goble
Aaron R.
Tim J
Some of it has to do with critics relying on the sort of consensus that takes decades to build. Some of it is just bad list making.
A TV list that includes Frasier and Roseanne, but not Lost? Seriously? At first I thought they had made a decision to exclude scripted shows that are still running, but there’s ER.
Also, no possible universe exists in which Bob Dylan is one of the top ten singers. Songwriters and musicians? Sure, maybe. But singers? Not a chance.
The AFI list is probably the most reliable (because it’s not just an exuse to sell magazines), but tends to be extremely conservative in its choices, which probably explains why it favors old movies.
Also, “thirtysomething”? You can’t be serious.
Last night I said to my sons: “This is the order, in case you were wondering: 1. Chris Cornell, 2. Mark Lanegan, 3. Dax Riggs.”
What BTD Greg said: No Lost?! What a joke.
Music has had a dismal 15 years. Eminem is probably the big name. There are a few other hip hop figures. But none that really overtook society the way so many from the 50′s through 90′s did. I suspect music is so fractured now that you’ll never get that kind of dominance again.
Regarding greatest movies I’m more surprised on that. I think that’s just plain bias along with the fact there are only 100 films. I think some films like Fight Club or Heat ought be in there. But then what film would you remove?
As for TV that list is just insane. Thirtysomething? Roseanne? Fraiser?
Most critics don’t have the guts to really call something great until an unwritten consensus has already been reached. Also, these people get paid to listen to a lot of music, or watch a lot of films, and labeling new stuff as derivative is their way of telling the uncultured masses that we don’t know history like they do.
The whole idea of derivative = inferior really bugs me. ‘Good’ and ‘Influential’ are two entirely different standards, and “Best of” lists ALWAYS seem to favor older works, more influential works. I think rock music today is 10 times better than Chuck Berry or Elvis or *gasp* the Beatles. Progress happens.
Also, if Neil Young is truly the 37th greatest singer that humanity has produced, than there is no God.
Any top singer list that does not include Sinatra ought to be burned after we spit on it profusely.
Agreed, it just takes time to build consensus. There are plenty of great movies and music in the last three years.
Speaking on film and tv because that is the business I work in, BTD Greg is exactly right about building on consensus. Films from the 30′s have already been agreed upon as being some of the best ever. So, how are they to ever be knocked out of the top 100? That takes some time. AFI people tend to be a little crusty as well.
There are some other reasons for tv. Here is the short summary. Channels are competing with exponentially more channels. The leash is so short these days that average shows are not given time to find themselves and become good shows. Many times, good shows (if their ratings are disappointing) are never given the chance to become great shows.
Another problem with having a bazillion channels is that we don’t have 5 bazillion writers to put quality shows together. The great writing is so diluted from the days have having a handful of channels and shows.
As for music, I can’t really speak to it because I listed to so little of it from the last 10 years. But my guess would be that the importance of “image” has never been higher for musicians. That is a good place to start.
There are some great singers in rock music today, but most critics are way too insecure to go out on a limb and put someone current on a list like this. I agree that Dylan and Young should not be possibilities for a top “singers” list.
Yeah, the singer list doesn’t do it for me. No Sinatra, no Tony Bennett, no Billie Holliday. No jazz period. And that’s not even looking at opera and other classically-trained singers. Sure, maybe they meant “100 top pop/rock singers,” but that’s not what they said. Plus, Sinatra et al. were pop singers.
And Dylan, for all the great music he made, was not a top singer under any definition.
I can buy this, but I can’t imagine that there is some consensus that LOTR is the best movie of the last 15 years.
Clark, Heat is a personal fave, but I don’t know if I could put it in the top 100.
How about LA Confidential?
What films would I remove? Ones that I can attest to have seen:
Unforgiven
The Wild Bunch
Sophie’s Choice
Titanic
And To Kill a Mockingbird should be much higher.
I’d love to know how Vertigo – a movie made 50 years ago – got 52 spots better over the last 9 years.
#66 Thom Yorke?!
I think Bob Dylan’s voice is an integral part of his music – which is also clangy, jangly, high-pitched, rough, etc. – and at times downright grating to the ear, but is still genius.
No doubt it’s an acquired taste for many. I tried listening to Bob Dylan when I was in high school and just didn’t get it. Now he’s one of my top favorites.
Also, if Neil Young is truly the 37th greatest singer that humanity has produced, than there is no God.
I agree. He should be much, much higher.
I was waiting for Susan to notice.
It doesn’t say the top 100 GOOD singers…
“I think Bob Dylan’s voice is an integral part of his music – which is also clangy, jangly, high-pitched, rough, etc. – and at times downright grating to the ear, but is still genius.”
Word. “Good singer” doesn’t necessarily mean “pretty singer.” Half the people on the list wouldn’t pass an American Idol audition. Thank God.
I was actually thinking about starting a thread about singers who are great even though they suck. Case in point: Greg Dulli.
Also: Bob Dylan had a really pretty voice that he could use from time to time (see: Nashville Skyline). He wasn’t by any means limited to the rougher stuff.
It doesn’t say the top 100 GOOD singers…
Then there’s some racial double standard at work, because with very few exceptions, the black performers on the list are GOOD singers and, again with very few exceptions (e.g. McCartney, Garfunkel), the white performers are not.
Hmm. I feel the same way about LA Confidential. I really like it but top 100? I think Heat was influential in ways LA Confidential wasn’t. But while I can think of films I’d kick out of the top 100 I actually probably agree rethinking things that Heat doesn’t belong.
I was going to suggest Shawshank which, while a tad oversentimental and not universally loved is pretty great. But it’s already there.
I still refuse to accept that Tootsie should be in the top 100 let alone 62 above some pretty fantastic films.
I remain committed that despite everyone putting it so high that Treasure of the Sierra Madre is a horrible film. I love Huston as a director and Bogart as an actor. But uck.
I like Vertigo but to put it so high?!? If it’s in the top 100 it belongs down in the 70′s or lower. And Read Window ought be much higher.
Blade Runner should be much, much higher.
I can’t believe the Sting isn’t on the top 100 (in either 2007 or 1998). I also think Blue Velvet should be in there somewhere.
It’s interesting Fargo fell off. I’m not sure it’s a top 100 films but shouldn’t Miller’s Crossing or O Brother Where Art Thou be in there instead?
At first I thought it shouldn’t be on for various reasons but on rethinking it, couldn’t we replace The Last Picture Show with The Matrix? I’d put The Matrix above The Sixth Sense, as much as I loved that latter movie.
I’d really disagree. A lot of the “greats” of television appear great because there wasn’t much to be better than and because there was a captive audience with few options. I think that while the last year or two haven’t been great for TV over all the last 15 years have seen a new golden age for television. There’s some fantastic series really breaking new ground and with amazing writing.
That’s not to discount most of the choices on TV Guide. Just that I think the writing on a series like Deadwood is vastly superior to the writing on Roseanne or even Taxi.
There really are some fantastic shows on TV. And even a lot of shows that aren’t still on are available on DVD and probably weren’t watched by many people. (i.e. pay cable network shows like Dexter, Deadwood, etc. or lesser known cable shows like The Wire, The Shield, etc.)
Ok, wait a minute. There’s no way you can talk about the top 100 singers without also inferring that they are good. Any other conclusion is linguistically impossible. By any definition, Dylan should not be on this list. He is a distinctive performer and a true artist, but a singer? Uh-uh.
I think a big part of qualifying for a “Top 100 of all time” list is that the movie/singer/whatever has stood the test of time. This is why it is usually a bad idea to put recent things on such lists. You end up picking lame movies (LOTR, for example) which will drop off the list quickly as they fade with time while the true classics of an era are often under-appreciated at first (for example, Pulp Fiction didn’t win best picture) until more time has passed.
I agree with you about The Sting, The Matrix, and Fargo. They belong. Another one would be Die Hard.
And I agree that Rear Window is better than Vertigo though most critics, not to mention Hitchcock himself, disagree.
Many would argue it deserved the Oscar that year instead of Titanic. I think you could make the case for it to make the list.
I’ll admit I’m a Shawshank apologist, but I’ve never understood this argument against it.
I think Chariots of Fire (Academy Award for Best Picture, 1981) belongs on that list. I am not sure LOTR should rank.
While I agree with what you said, I don’t think it is totally at odds with my point. Writing staffs have gotten diluted, it is just a numbers game really.
Yes, there have been plenty of good shows over the years. But there have been THOUSANDS of shows. Obviously some are going to work out. But there have been a lot of really, really, really bad shows.
Another advantage the current shows have over the past is the drastic change in what kind of content is acceptable on television. That has had a lot to do with these shows being able to break new ground.
Bob Dylan is a great singer. Not in the conventional way. That’s the whole point.
For those who disbelieve, listen to “Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right”. That has to be one of the most soothing songs I’ve ever heard … the kind of song I would love to hear in the morning to start out my day.
I honestly don’t think a lot of the people on the list should actually be on a list together. It’s like comparing apples to pizzas. How do you rank people against each other who are noted singers for completely different reasons.
Maybe it’s partially to start stimulating conversation.
For those who disbelieve, listen to “Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Rightâ€. That has to be one of the most soothing songs I’ve ever heard … the kind of song I would love to hear in the morning to start out my day.
Sure. As long as Peter, Paul & Mary are singing it.
Cosby all the way down to #28? Should be higher.
That TV Guide list is a joke. Here’s what should be the top 3:
1. MASH
2. Arrested Development
3. Seinfeld
The problem with Vertigo is the lame ending (IMO). I liked it a lot but I’m surprised Hitchcock thought it was better than Rear Window.
I disagree with Lord of the Rings. That’s a great movie. Maybe it belongs down near the bottom. But it definitely belongs…
As for LA Confidential, yeah it deserved the Oscar that year. But then the Academy gets it wrong about half the time. Look at how many movies considered greats and classics didn’t win Academy awards? I bet a significant number of films on that list lost to movies not on the list!
I thought that was the only good part of the movie.
!
You would be correct.
It’s a little hard for me to judge music, since I don’t listen to any popular music younger than 40 years. I think Nirvana and Pearl Jam made some inroads in music, didn’t they? And in the 80s, Prince, Michael Jackson and Madonna brought a new kind of sophistication to pop music.
But are there any covers of these songs? That’s a good way to judge the continuing influence of a song, if people cover it. The Beatles were covered almost instantaneously with their own hit versions of their songs (“With A Little Help From My Friends” and “Something in the Way She Moves” and “Fool on the Hill” come to mind).
As I’ve mentioned before, it’s quite foolish to make a list of a hundred great movies. There have been some terrific movies in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. There have been some awful ones too. Some of the awful ones were awfully popular (Titanic).
As for television, there was a big leap in the quality of sitcoms starting with Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda, Taxi, Cheers, Seinfeld, Frasier, Friends and Will and Grace. Plus Soap, Golden Girls, Roseanne, Designing Women.
And HBO really leapt ahead with The Sopranos, Sex and the City, and Six Feet Under.
Look at how long it took the public to catch on to Seinfeld, about three years. Now it is hailed as the greatest show ever.
I think that The Office (both UK and US) have a lot of brilliant moments. Arrested Development was even better though not as accessible so it was canceled prior to catching on.
I think 30 Rock is consistently brilliant. In 10 or 15 years it will be in the top 20 of lists such as these.
I’m not convinced that consensus building is the main problem–regarding film. One of the big problems in current filmmaking (imo) is that it has drifted further away from literature (than before) and closer to technology.
In fairness to the public, I think it took Seinfeld a few years to catch on to what Seinfeld should be.
Another problem with film these days is execs want a built in audience. They want an already established franchise. They want their job half done before the film is even made. So they pass over original ideas in order to rehash comic books and remake films that were already good.
I have no inherent problem with remakes, but I wish they would remake bad films that were good ideas but failed in their execution.
I think the bigger problem is just that the market is so diversified. It’s really hard to capture the cultural zietgeist in the way one once could. Seinfeld probably will be the last to do it. The Sopranos came close but let’s be honest. It had a fraction of Seinfeld’s audience.
Re: Neil Young, Bob Dylan, and the top singers list:
As David Berman (Silver Jews) said, “All my favorite singers couldn’t sing.”